Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On 3 Apr, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:10:32AM -0400, judd@wadsworth.org wrote:
> ...
>
>> > * Why does everything need to be some sort of vast conspiracy?
>> > Remember Hanlon's Razor? It could have just as easily been
>> > someone overlooking something, someone going against orders,
>> > whatever.
>>
>> I'm a scientist, we use Occam's razor, not Hanlon's. :-) Since
>> we were discussing a presidential order, which referenced justice
>> department memos (which are of dubious legal merit, anyway), I don't
>> see how that can be "someone going against orders.
>>
> I'm sorry, but who decided that the memos were of "dubious legal merit"?
> The media? Please forgive me if I consider their motives suspect.
>
The American Bar Association
At least 12 former presidents of the ABA
Many military lawyers in the pentagon
The US State Department
Amnesty International
Red Cross International
etc, etc, etc.
One analysis of it is at http://lawofwar.org/Torture_Memos_analysis.htm
> Now, if there has been a court decision which invalidates the Justice
> Department's opinion, then you have something.
>
As far as I know, it has not been tested in court, but as soon as
it became public the White House and Justice department tried to
distance themselves from it.
> > * In what way have the prisoners' GC protections allegedly been
>> > withheld?
>> >
>>
>> Torture.
>
> Forgive me if I wait for this to be proven in court.
>
Charles Graner was convicted of Assault, conspiracy, maltreatment of
detainees, committing indecent acts and dereliction of duty.
Some of the acts which resulted in these convictions would most
likely qualify as a war crime under the US War Crimes Act. IIRC,
some other Abu Ghraib guards were also convicted on similar charges.
As far as I know, you are correct that no one has yet been
convicted (or even charged) with the war crime of torture.
>> Humiliating and degrading treatment.
>
>
> My perspective is this. We start off treating them nice and
> professionally. When they start acting like animals, then we treat
> them as such. By all accounts, the prisoners are treated quite
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which accounts are these?
> professionally at first. It is only when they become vicious towards
> the staff that incidents of retribution or what might be considered
> humiliating and degrading treatment happen.
>
Examples?
> ...
>> And what I'd like to know, is what the US gains by not giving them at
>> least common article III protections?
>>
> Nothing. I am in agreement that GC protections should be accorded.
>
At least we agree on this.
-Chris
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| Christopher Judd, Ph. D. judd@wadsworth.org |
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